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"The day went like I was on a cloud, and people of the government for whom I should pray came to my mind all day. Bible verses always flooded my mind as I prayed for each person or event throughout the day, in addition to my set prayer time. I praise God that I had the experience to pray with so many in Jesus' name."
From Surfer

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Nony Wrote the following on 02/21/2005 4:18 PM :
Getting sick... think I'll watch "beach business" again to calm me down...


Napoleon Bonaparte Wrote the following on 02/21/2005 4:21 PM :
Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich.


Albert Einstein Wrote the following on 02/21/2005 4:30 PM :
Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.



Bishop Desmond Tutu Wrote the following on 02/21/2005 4:33 PM :
When the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said "Let us pray." We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land.


Nony Wrote the following on 02/22/2005 1:52 PM :
'Pride is the greatest sin a human being can commit. A lot of it going around here.......' Look who is talking!


Surfer Wrote the following on 02/22/2005 2:05 PM :
Sorry God, I really don't have time to read inane babble right now but if you set up an appointment with my secretary, I'm sure we can work something out...



Nony Wrote the following on 02/22/2005 2:36 PM :
Dear Mr. "The Truth" about time to stop lying!


Nony Wrote the following on 02/22/2005 2:37 PM :
Thanks to you I got my "ads by google" bar filled with crap about god truth and bible... damn


Nony Wrote the following on 02/22/2005 2:48 PM :
Thank you, I am not looking for followers at the moment! I guess I can find many historians saying resurections is bogus if I put my hart in it. That line about historical proof isn't worth the bandwith used for it.



Sky Wrote the following on 02/22/2005 2:50 PM :
Please provide a single, credible historical citation of the resurrection. You won't be able to, since there are none. There cannot be any since no one, but no one witnessed the ressurection. The resurrection is a matter of faith, not fact. Didn't you learn this in Sunday school? Perhaps you don't know as much about your religion as you think you do, Truth.


DogFace Wrote the following on 02/22/2005 3:11 PM :
Boof! Barf! Skyack!


Sky Wrote the following on 02/22/2005 4:17 PM :
Obviously, you aren't much of a historian either. But my brother, sister, boss, and a great friend, who is chair of the history department a local university are historians, so I kind of dabble in it a bit. They and I say you are telling tales out of school. The resurrection of Jesus IS NOT a historical fact. It's a bible story - nothing more. I ask you again: provide us with a single, credible historical citation to back your claim.

I smell one of the kiddies!



Sky Wrote the following on 02/22/2005 5:24 PM :
And still no citation! Good job Cloud/Patriot! You're still batting 1000 on ignroance. This is standard fundamentalist Christian bullshit. You have no facts, you have no proof, you refuse to provide it; yet you demand that EVERYONE just accept your point of view. And then you wonder why the rest of the world despises you. You guys are worse than the fundamentalist Muslims. At least all they want is to be left alone. Sorry guys, you'll have to go back to the Dark Ages alone. The rest of us will be moving forward in our social evolution.


Patriot Wrote the following on 02/22/2005 5:49 PM :
I'd be happy to enter into a friendly debate about this with you Sky, even if Cloud won't, but unlike him, I've debated you before. So before we proceed into a waste of my time providing you with all the evidence that stands against your postion we should agree to certain rules of evidence. Fair enough?

That way when we get to the end and you've lost, but your stuborn pride won't let you admit it, there will be an objective standard to stand as the judge. Because I value accuracy, but don't consider myself an expert on this subject the rules shouldn't be anymore stringent then a court of law. But I also believe they should be stringent enough.

Think about what "stringent enough" means to you and let me know what you think should be the rules of evidence. I'll offer you my thoughts tomorrow.

Time to go home and help the pregnant wife with the daily chores.


Juniper Wrote the following on 02/23/2005 02:23 AM :
If Christ new what a hassle he would create, he probably would have stayed home with his father.

So Bob, when witnesses are skeptical, it reinforces your belief? Bizarre attitude, hope you never sit on a jury! Keep in mind that all this was only written down 70+ years after the facts by people who heard it from people who heard it and who were doing their very best to convince the unbelievers of their truthfulness. Guess the writers were a bit prejudiced and not really objective! Afterwards it has been adapted and "translated" and adapted again and again to fit the different political positions of the church...



Patriot Wrote the following on 02/23/2005 09:09 AM :
A few questions for you Juniper:

How do you know the Civil war took place? Where you there?

Or do you accept it as a fact of history based on authority?

Have you ever studied the Civil War?....looked at the evidence?

I don't know about Bob, but it most certainly reinforces my belief that when the apostles, who three days prior, saw Jesus die on the cross and then saw him walking around were skeptical. People don't rise from the dead every day Juniper. If you were there 2000 + years ago and weren't sketptical about what you saw, you wouldn't be in possession of a sound mind, and then I could hardly believe anything else you said about what you saw.


Nony Wrote the following on 02/23/2005 10:13 AM :
Guess Juniper must have hit a sore spot since you start talking about the Civil war all on the sudden! :) Comparing bananas with tomatos are we?


Surfer Wrote the following on 02/23/2005 10:16 AM :
Patriot, I don't mean to jump in here and I'm certainly not going to hijack this, but let me interject one comment here:

To say that you accept something simply because you accept written record of the event is proof of validity for a belief in religion is a horrible way to justify one's faith (yes, that is exactly what you were doing - only people with questions and doubt feel the need to justisy faith). For your argument of history, first: (as coined by someone else) history is not the event, it is the record of the event. It is written by it's victors, taught according to how the vistor sees fit, we recite it in the prescribed manner until the truth is lost to us. This applies to every event in time. Every. There's more proof for the Civil War (and yes, I *have* seen evidence and proof and *have* done the research) than there is for a Mesiah to have walked the planet.

Second: Nazi, Hitler, Germany. Within a number of years, the political power had taken control and initiated several laws, practices, etc (this is the short quick and dirty of it). As soon as those events happened and any measure of time had passed without retribution from God, other countries, etc, it could be said that their actions were accepted and ordained (and they did). They built upon that claim and that claim because history. It was not necessarily true.

It's a decent try, but perhaps you should find a more logical and less emotional approach to proof of your truth. (keep floundering, the nail's there, you just haven't hit it yet)



Patriot Wrote the following on 02/23/2005 11:07 AM :
The questions about the Civil war serve to answer some questions I have about Juniper's understanding of history or lack thereof. I don't know his mind with respect to this issue, so I asked the questions. The only raw nerves I have this morning, are my aching muscles. (long swim last night)

Since Surfer already hijacked this thread, I guess it's open game....

The bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead is the crowning proof of Christianity. Everything else that was said or done by Christ and the Apostles is secondary in importance to the resurrection. If the resurrection did not take place then Christianity is a false religion. If it did take place, then Christ is God and the Christian faith is absolute truth.

Death is our greatest enemy and it has conquered all men but Christ. No man is wise enough to outwit death or wealthy enough to purchase freedom from death or strong enough to vanquish death. The grave always wins the victory and every person sooner or later returns to the dust.

In fact, the inexorable triumph of death applies not only to people, but to all things. Animals die and plants die, and even whole species atrophy and become extinct. Cities and nations, like people, are born and grow for a season, and then fade away. Homes and automobiles and clothes wear out and must eventually go back to the dust, just as do their owners. Even the universe itself is running down and heading toward an ultimate "heat death."

This universal reign of decay and death is called in the Bible "the bondage of corruption" (Romans 8:21). In science it has come to be recognized as the Second Law of Thermodynamics. Also known as the Law of Increasing Entropy, this Law is now recognized as a universal law of science, with no known exception ever observed. It says, quite simply that every system tends to become disordered, to run down and eventually to die. Its entropy, which is a measure of disorder, always tends to increase.

The universality of the reign of decay and death is the measure of the absolute uniqueness of the resurrection of Christ. All other men, even the greatest men and the holiest men, have died. Buddha, Mohammed, Zoroaster, Confucius, Caesar, Marx—men who made a profound impact on the world in one way or another—are all dead.

But Jesus Christ is alive! It is true that He died and was buried, in common with all other men, but unlike other men He returned, resurrected His own dead body, made it henceforth immortal, and emerged from the tomb, alive forevermore! This was the greatest of all miracles since the creation itself, and could have been accomplished only if Jesus indeed is God, as He had claimed to be.

I've offerred Sky, and I'll extend the same offer to any of you - to examine the actual evidence for His resurrection. If all of this is somehow a delusion and if Jesus of Nazareth did not really rise from the dead, then He is no different from other great men who are also dead. He is worse than they, in fact, because He is thereby either the Devil of Hell or a madman, since He staked all His claims to be absolute Deity on His promise to return from the dead.

On the other hand, if the resurrection is really a demonstrable fact of history, then not only are His claims vindicated, but so are His promises. Death is not, after all, the great victor, but is a defeated foe. He has "begotten us again unto a living hope, by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead" (I Peter 1:3). "Now is Christ risen from the dead . . . even so in Christ shall all be made alive" (I Corinthians 15:20,22).


Golly Wrote the following on 02/23/2005 12:27 AM :
Don't say "sore spot" to Juniper Nony.


Juniper Wrote the following on 02/23/2005 1:52 PM :
I'm more intrigued with the banana tomato image myself Golly!

Patriot, believing in his resurection is up to everybody personal, free will and al that.

Using the bible to proof the resurrection, is at par with using the Iliad to proof the existence of Apollo. (from the piont of view of a non-believer)

Don't matter really does it Patriot, be Jesus the Son of God, a mad man, or a gifted phllosopher, what really counts is that he sure made and still makes an impact on this world.

Anyway just look at how we as a nation hoard all the wealth on this planet for ourselves and how we are even willing to go to war for a percieved shortage of a mineral to ensure it will be in our control... not very christian at all is it now. So you keep trying to score points Patriot, I'm trying to live my life as I think I understand he intended we should live it.



Patriot Wrote the following on 02/23/2005 2:40 PM :
God made you as a unique individual Juniper. No argument from me here. He made us all unique. There is not another Juniper on earth, nor has there been or will be. Your values should be choosen by you. No one can live your life for you or make your decisions for you. You make a good point in that respect.

I'm not against you Juniper, for whom Christ also died. I'm against the false ideas that hold you captive.


Juniper Wrote the following on 02/23/2005 2:58 PM :
Scuse me? I hold false ideas captive? I hold my ideas free and i do not consider them false, where do you get the authority to judge me? Why does everything you say have to be negative? False Ideas, captive...

You know better then? If you live like a true christian according to christ word, you should have forgiveness in your heart, not the hate I can see reflected in your posts. Oh, and don't give me your usual crap about being a sinner and trying etc, you are a grown up mature person responsible for your own life and deeds. That is what your much taunted freedom and free will is all about. Giving in to temptation without struggle and then running to church for confession is not my idea of a good christian. Neither does fighting a war in a foreign country strike me as christian, or keeping 70% of the worlds resources for ourselves, or having third world citizens labor for a buck a week so we can have cheap luxury items., or wasting and poluting the planet which God entrusted to us, or creating useless products to fill our artificial needs...

Better read the message of Jesus again Patriot, and find out his true meaning. Do you work with metally handicapped people dumped by their own "christian" families? Do you work with the homeless in your spare time? Do you help the old folks in your neighberhood with their shopping and visit them because their "christian" childeren are to busy making money? So you are telling me that all that is not according to the teaching of your christ, it is just all false ideas held captive? I might be gay, but all I really do is try to make a difference in other peoples lives.


Surfer Wrote the following on 02/23/2005 3:04 PM :
Patriot, is death really all that great an enemy?

Aside from Bibilical texts, where other proof is there of Christ's death? For all anyone knows (and has acutally theorized) this death and resurrection was nothing more than an excommunication and reacceptance (and would certainly make sense, most especially when you look at the grip of fear excommunication had on earlier people since they believed that was how you became a vampire or werewolf - I'm serious about that by the way... well, that they believed that...why else exume a dead body to whip it and excommunicate it...). But back to the point, what other proof?



Patriot Wrote the following on 02/23/2005 3:04 PM :
I'm not judging you Juniper. If that is your perception, and it seems that it is - I apologize. There are a lot of screwed up things about this world. I agree with you there. There are alot of wolves in sheeps clothing claiming to christians. There are a lot of muslims killing in the name of Allah too. You know - these people hold - false ideas. They hold people captive. Me included. Just trying to shed some light in your direction. Thank you for doing the same for me.


Juniper Wrote the following on 02/23/2005 3:17 PM :
A lot of those muslims have been provoked! I am amazed it took so long before they acted! Still, no reason to kill them all is it now. Why not try to understand them? Nothing wrong with that. Ever asked yourself why the people in the Middle East hate America? Ever tried to view the world from their point of view, ever listened to them? Ever objectively researched what American policy has done to them? You are sitting at a computer with access to the biggest resource the world has ever known, but you refuse to look into what would expose the whole current Muslim scaremongery as the lie it is, because it would also expose the whole false pretence of the current "freedom" mission Bush has embarked upon.

About the fucked up world, do someting about it then, you are going to have a kid, make sure he got himself a world to live in. A world build on mutual understanding. War is for cowards.


Patriot Wrote the following on 02/23/2005 3:23 PM :
Have you ever objetively researched what a 747 jet airplane does when it flies into a building?

I'd have a lot more respect for your bleeding heart act Juniper if it bled for your own countrymen.



Ward Churchill Wrote the following on 02/23/2005 3:25 PM :
Juniper is my kind of guy. In an intellectual, anti-american sense that is.


Iraqi's Children Before Liberation Wrote the following on 02/23/2005 3:29 PM :
Where was Juniper when we were in prison? When Saddam was killing our parents?


Juniper Wrote the following on 02/23/2005 3:36 PM :
Thanks for proving to be a false christian Patriot! Have you ever thought about why they flew that plane into the buildings? I was here you know, I am a nurse, you were not even there, I had the "pleasure" to experience it first hand. If you would just be able to get over it just enough to look at the injustice and wrong we have committed in the Middle East over the past 50+ years!

Mr Churchill, I guess I am more american than you will ever be. It is people with attitudes like you that are destroying this country.

Dear "Iraqi etc..." there are still governments that are supported by the United States that are more repressive than Iraq ever was.



Juniper Wrote the following on 02/23/2005 3:43 PM :
Cause and effect Patriot, are at the root of the 9/11 business! Closing your eyes to it is not going to change it. This whole war business if fighing the symptoms, not the cause of the problems.

And mr. Churchill, the comment was meant for your impersonator, not you.


Patriot Wrote the following on 02/23/2005 4:07 PM :
Wow Juniper. I had no idea your hatred of America went this deep. Why do you stay? Could it be there is no better alternative? No other society that is as tolerant or free? But just not tolerant or free enough for your idealism?


Juniper Wrote the following on 02/23/2005 4:29 PM :
Reverting to NeoCon's "if you don't like it leave it' tactics Patriot? If somebody is out to ruin what America stands for, it is you and your likeminded friends. The US can do no wrong right? Such a bloody arrogant attitude, it makes me wanna puke. This society is not free and tolerant, your answer clearly shows how unfree and intollerant this nation has become.



Patriot Wrote the following on 02/23/2005 4:40 PM :
For crying out loud Juniper! It's like arguing with a women. Take it down a notch. Why do you take everything so damn personal? It's not all about you - you know?

My question was serious. I realize you hate America. I'm not out to change your mind. If you hate America, as irrational as your reasons may be, I respect them. As a fellow human being, I think you deserve to be happy. If you're not happy here, I was suggesting an alternative. If you want to stay and whine, that's fine too.

How is disagreeing with you intolerant? You want me to lie to you and offer you platitudes?


Surfer Wrote the following on 02/23/2005 11:37 PM :
"Arguing with a woman?" Is that supposed to be an insult? And with that, I think we see the largest part of Patriot's problem.


Juniper Wrote the following on 02/24/2005 01:51 AM :
Dear Patriot, on one side you are bullshitting away about Creationism and sticking to the fine punctuation marks of the Bible, on the other hand, you claim to be a christian with a firm knowledge of the Truth, and you blab about forgiveness and praying and sin... but you seem to be completely unaware of the real message of Christ, the moment it does not fit in your agressive NeoCon views. Ever heard about Compassion? Forgiving? Love toward others?

My dear man, I do not take your comments personal, far from, I just feel that you must be a very pathetic and hypocritical man who is convinced he is a good christian, because he can talk peoples ears of in defending the "fine points" of the bible, but who has not understood the actual message it contains.

So I ask you a polite question, What do you base yourself on in proclaiming I hate America?



Alice Wrote the following on 02/24/2005 02:03 AM :
Hey Juniper, you up as well?


Juniper Wrote the following on 02/24/2005 02:26 AM :
Sick as a dog... got flue and can't shake it. Been in bed for 4 days now...


Patriot Wrote the following on 02/24/2005 09:42 AM :
Juniper, I've said it before and I'll say it again - my view is not the only rational view on creationism or evolution. I am not an expert. An expert, to me is someone who has made all the mistakes. Iron sharpens iron. The human mind only grows through ACTIVE inquiry and debate. None of us will learn anything by passive acceptance. Please, by all means, if you have a different viewpoint, and your emotions seem to indicate you do - please articulate it. Simply stating that you disagree, is hardly interesting or worth reading. Tell me why you disagree!!

Or if you want - just post articles that you agree with and then say "I agree 100% with everything in this article". But please understand my mind doesn't work that way. I rarely read anything written by someone else that rings true with me 100%. If you post an article, but have doubts to some of the subject matter, then I think these points of contention that you stumble on would be great starting points for discussion.

On another note, I accepted Christ into my life, BECAUSE of my weaknesses. Hypocrisy. Yeh, I've been guilty of that. Unloving or fearful - yeah, I've been guilty of that too. You don't even know the half of it. But I'm not here to debate whether I'm a good person without Christ. I already know the answer to that one. Juniper, you may very well be a more compassionate, loving person then I am. Being a Christian doesn't make someone perfect. Being a true Christian makes a person a follower of Christ. The perfection part, Christ works on in His own time. He sets things on a person's heart to change. Love and compassion don't equal kindness Juniper. Would you respect a person or consider it 'loving' if I wanted you to be comfortable, but I lied to you?



Juniper Wrote the following on 02/24/2005 1:59 PM :
So easy to say that Christ will work on the perfection part in His own time... kind of relieves you of your responsabilities. You have to actively participate in reaching that perfection you know. Which means to open yourself to other people and try to see beyond the mask. The fact that they are muslims are budhists or pagans or non-americans does not change that. Christ died for them also!

I am not worried about you lying to me to make me feel comfortable, you barely know me, you have "touched" me, but you don't "know" me. I'm more worried about you lying to yourself!

In the end we all try do do our best the best way we can according to ones own beliefs. I don't think Christ will object to that.


Surfer Wrote the following on 02/24/2005 2:27 PM :
Ya know, alot of people have a fear of answers to questions that they don't want to ask. They fear the question because they only want to see the answers that prove them right. So, they ignore or belittle the rest. Don't worry about it Juniper, those kind of people are actually wasting your time when you could be discussing the poitn with people who will listen. Then, that stubborn and willfully ignorant population will dimish and die of it's own accord. Just focus on the fixable problem. There's only a couple of people here that actually refuse. Ignore them.


Surfer Wrote the following on 02/24/2005 2:32 PM :
Patriot, I don't get it. You sit there and tell everybody that doesn't believe exactly like you that they are wrong and that you are the only person that has it right. Then, when someone calls you on it, you dodge it. If they persist, you back down with the comments of "it's just my opinion" and "I'm not perfect" and so forth. It's getting old because you say on the one side (repeatedly) that you know the truth while on the other side, you repeatedly say you don't follow it. You know what that makes you don't you? Two things and I'll give you the first letter of each "L" and "H" and I can't stand either.



Juniper Wrote the following on 02/24/2005 2:45 PM :
Thx Surfer! i know, I get more response from the feisty old bitty next door who keeps telling me I should give up my unnatural and ungodly ways, get myself a nice jewish girl and settle down. :)


Surfer Wrote the following on 02/24/2005 3:13 PM :
Sounds like the secret to life. Here, have another sausage (doulbe meaning meant if you interpreted it that way, but if one meaning offended you, then I meant the other one)


Juniper Wrote the following on 02/24/2005 3:27 PM :
Chicken soup and Nice jewish girls! If only! I'll have both those sausages, not easily offended. LOL



Sky Wrote the following on 02/24/2005 4:17 PM :
Juniper, tell the biddy next store that you thought your latest squeeze was a nice Jewish girl until you got her home and got a tranny surprise! LOL


Juniper Wrote the following on 02/24/2005 4:18 PM :
But then you were behaving like a juvenile delinquent Golly! Giving me a right good hazing if I remember ... not that that wasn't fun! How are the tanlines by the way? :) Anyway, I better take my medication, eat the neighbors chickensoup, crawl back in bed and contemplate settling down with a "nice" jewish girl...


Golly Wrote the following on 02/24/2005 4:21 PM :
Try a girl Juniper, they're fun. Hell, try the biddy next door, I would.



Juniper Wrote the following on 02/24/2005 4:22 PM :
That is too cool Sky, have to remember that one! Now how am I going to explain to the old dear what a tranny surprise is? Something to ponder while I simmer with fever dreams... This flue really stinks by the way, haven't been under like this for ages.


Juniper Wrote the following on 02/24/2005 4:25 PM :
Golly she is 79 and looks it! She was a beauty in her youth, seen all the pics 50 times already... No, guess she is trying to sweet talk me into her grand daughter... enough already, got to go lie down.


Golly Wrote the following on 02/24/2005 4:27 PM :
79? Turn the lights off or turn her around, you know all about that!!



Juniper Wrote the following on 02/24/2005 4:29 PM :
That is so gross! Now I really have to go lie down...


Golly Wrote the following on 02/24/2005 4:31 PM :
Exactly...that is what I have been trying to tell you.


Sky Wrote the following on 02/24/2005 4:42 PM :
Tell her that a tranny is a girl with a HUGE clitoris and really think lips. Oy vey.



Juniper Wrote the following on 02/25/2005 09:57 AM :
Oy vey indeed! LOL


Patriot Wrote the following on 02/26/2005 10:51 AM :
Juniper - your point is well taken. Faith without works IS dead faith. But Christ meant what He said. Those who put themselves in His hands will become perfect, as He is perfect - perfect in love, wisdom, joy, beauty, and immortality. The change will not be completed in this life, for death is an important part of the treatment. How far the change will have gone before death in any particular Christian is uncertain.

The question that you seem to ask most often of me seems to be: If Christianity is true why are not all Christians obviously nicer than all non-Christians? What lies behind that question is partly something very reasonable and partly something that is not reasonable at all. The reasonable part is this: If conversion to Christianity makes no improvement in a man's outward actions - if he continues to be just as snobbish or spiteful or envious or ambitious as he was before - then I think we must suspect that his conversion was largely imaginary and after one's original conversion, every time one thinks one has made an advance, that is the test to apply. Fine feelings, new insights, greater interest in "religion" mean nothing unless they make our actual behavior better; just as in an illness 'feeling better' is not much good if the thermometer shows that your temperature is still going up. In that sense the outer world is quite right to judge Christianity by its results. Christ told us to judge by results. A tree is known by its fruit. When we Christians behave badly or fail to behave well, we are making Christianity unbelievable to the outside world.

But there is another way of demanding results in which the outer world may be quite illogical. They may demand not merely that each man's life should improve if he becomes a Christian; they may also demand before they believe in Christianity that they should see the whole world neatly divided into two camps - Christian and non-Chrsitian and that all the people in the first camp at any given moment should be obviously nicer than all the people in the second. This is unreasonable on several grounds.

In the first place the situation in the actual world is much more complicated than that. The world does not consist of 100 per cent Christians and 100 per cent non- Christians. There are people (a great many of them) who are slowly ceasing to be Christians, but who still call themselves by that name - some of them are clergymen. There are other people who are slowly becoming Christians though they do not yet call themselves so. There are people who not accept the full Christian doctorine about Christ but they are so strongly attrracted by Him that they are His in a much deeper sense then they themselves understand. There are people in other religions who are being led by God's secret influence to concentrate on those parts of their religion which are in agreement with Christianity and who therefore belong to Christ without knowinng it. For example, a Buddhist of 'good will' may be led to concentrate more and more on the Buddhist teaching about mercy and to leave in the background the Buddhist teaching on certain other points. Many of the good Pagans long before Christ's birth may have been in this position. And always, of course, there are a great many people who are just confused in mind and have a lot of inconsistent beliefs all jumbled up together in their heads. Consequently, it is not much use trying to make judgements about Christians and non-Christians in the mass. It is some use comparing cats and dogs, or even men and women, in the mass, because there one knows definitely which is which. Also, an animal does not turn from a dog into a cat. But when we are comparing Christians in general with non-Christians in general, we are usually not thinking about real peoeple whom we know at all, but only about two vague ideas which we have got from television or the internet. If you want to compare the bad Christian and the good Atheist, you must think about two real specimens whom you have actually met. Unless we come down to brass tacks in that way, we shall only be wasting time.


Juniper Wrote the following on 02/26/2005 3:00 PM :
Hi Patriot, first let me say that I'm really amazed that you found the time to give such a well thought out answer, considering the impeding birth of your son and all the extra work that long expected arrival must entail!

Patriot, I was brought up strict Roman Catholic, with all the frustrations that go with it. I detached myself from that dictatorial organized religion a good 18 years ago, for all the obvious reasons. But, the basic teachings of Christ always appealed to me, without the need to be fanatic about it or feel I had to witness my faith to others. So I have been doing my little bits here and there trying to help people in way He might approve off. Sharing my "wealth" (be it money, time or health) with those who need it, and things like that. And to tell you honestly, I do it because I like it, and because if feels right! Eternal life etc. are far from my thoughts. Just to see the look in these people eyes is reward enough.

Yes I see where you are leading with your essay and you do make a very good case, but the basic question is not really the comparison between the Christians and the non-Christians. All decent religions have that basic "love your neighbor like you love yourself" somewhere build into their foundations, they just word it in a different way. Living in a "high density multi-cultural city" has exposed me to enough religious variations from Atheist over Buddhist over Christians over Muslim to Pagan as to be able to draw my conclusions on that matter.

However the basic question for me is: how can people proclaim to be Christian and claim to live according to Christ teachings at the same time feel quite comfortable in supporting this unjust war that finds it's origins in lies and fraud. I agree that terrorist need to be captured and punished, don't misunderstand me here! But did we have to invade and violate an independent country with up to date absolutely no connections to the 9-11 terrorist attack? Could the money spend on unsettling and de-stabilizing that region not have been used toward a more appropriate and above all more Christian solution of the Saddam problem?

Oh, this contrast between claiming to live according to His teachings and the actual live they live goes much further than just this one issue with the war... don't you worry. I see self-proclaimed self-righteous Christians pushing and shoving themselves to the front every day. Actually just look at your much taunted president! (sorry have a hard time seeing him as my president) My guess is that Christ does not agree with him at all. I just can't help it Patriot, but I think fighting a war and hiding behind the Bible about it is just plain wrong. Same goes for the refusal to sign the Kyoto agreement, cutting money from welfare, education, social security... and all those other things that benefit the poor, to have more money for killing and conquering. That is after all what the Pentagon is all about right?

You write: A tree is known by its fruit, well should a Nation not be known by its deeds? Have you never wondered why the rest of the world thinks so badly about our Nation at the moment?

And by the way, why does asking you to look at the US policy in the Middle East in the past 50 years as a possible cause/effect for the 9-11 attack make me anti-American?

No hard feelings Patriot, no need to answer either, wish you and especially your wife the best, that the labor is short and the birthing smooth and easy! Are you having a home birth or are you going to check into a hospital?



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