codewolf Wrote the following on 11/01/2004 1:01 PM : and how do you think the families of the killed soldiers will vote?
Patriot Wrote the following on 11/01/2004 2:29 PM : Most families that have lost a son or daughter see their sacrifice as an honor. They see the purpose and dignity of fighting for the protection of our country and freedom abroad. I know it may sound idealistic to someone whose mind is filled with doubt and confusion about the world on a daily basis, but not all Americans agree with you and Michael Moore with respect to military service.
Surfer Wrote the following on 11/01/2004 3:09 PM : Patriot, do you have anyone in the forces? Any friends? Any sons or daughters? Have you lost one? I'll be honest when I say I don't think so. I have relatives in the Armed Forces. I know what that fear is and it doesn't matter when the cause is that they died for: it never brings them back. I don't care how you slice the pie, a life for a moral never seems a fair trade.
Surfer Wrote the following on 11/01/2004 3:13 PM : Also, all those people refusing to show up for call to duty...what is it... 40%? How do you think they're going to vote...and their families?
Stew Wrote the following on 11/01/2004 3:20 PM : The problem is that Patriot and many other pro-Bushies want to believe that there is some redeeming value to being in this war. These folks have all been had by Bush and his administration. Our troops are fighting with honor but the reason they are fighting is completely bogus. They will die for a bogus cause. There is no doubt or confusion about it. It is people like Patriot that are confused and the Bush admin count on that.
Surfer Wrote the following on 11/01/2004 3:34 PM : Patriot, Watch this:http://www.truthandhope.org/Funny.mov
Watch it really close. Tell me, does it look like that woman screaming at the funeral thinks it's an honor that *her*loved one died? What about those soldiers crying? The man with a gun to his head, does he think it's an honor? What about the looks of terror and pain on the faces of the soldiers... does *that* look like honor? ---What about the man who came home and tested positive for radiation contamination and now he and his wife have a daughter that has horrible physical birth defects.... will they look on that daughter with pride and consider it a trophy of honor? I've never seen somone so full of such a false sense of humanity. Tell me, could you, would you tell your children of 5 and 8 years old what it's like to watch someone die in the middle of a fire fight? Could you tell them what it sounded like to hear the man's anguished screams of pain, wishing while near death that he was at home holding his wife and children? Could you show them what it is like to watch a person die while their eyelids slowly close to hide the eyes that are rolling up while the life leaks slowly away? There's your honor. ****I'm sorry, Patriot, I'm trying to see your point of view. I really am, but I'm having trouble sticking my head that far up my ass.
Patriot Wrote the following on 11/01/2004 5:47 PM : Surfer - your comments only reinforce the importance that the wars our country enters into are just and serve to protect the American people. You write as though you didn't lose someone to a terrorist attack or you don't know someone that did. I do. Death is the ultimate price - whether it is payed by a civilian or a soldier. The major difference between our points of view is this - IT'S THE MILITARY'S JOB TO PROTECT OUR COUNTRY. It's called service. It's what these brave men and women do. I don't think any of them WANT TO die for their country, but most (3/4 of them) are freely voting to re-elect the man that sent them to war in the first place. Beyond your opinion or mine, this says something about their service. And let's not forget - it's THEIR service to our country - not yours. Although you may be too big of a pussy to accept the fact that death is as much a part of life, the crux of the matter is this - are we at war for good purpose? You do not think so, therefore you are willing to discount the value of war. I believe fighting for the right purpose is the most important thing we can do as a free people. If we were to listen to people like you, we'd still be under British control, kissing the Queens ass from across the Atlantic, and we wouldn't be communicating via the internet, because the democratic, free society that served as a pietre dish to produce this technology, would never have evolved. BTW - Stew - if you can't accept the fact that the troops believe they are fighting for the right cause, and you're willing to live in this country under their protection, and the only criticism you're able to offer is that all people for the war are uncle fuckers, then you should give the money back right now. That's right, all the money you've ever made as a result of living under the umbrella of free, democratic, capitalistic society that many men and women gave their lives for. To drink freely from this stream and then to say that you don't like how the stream has been damned up river, is typical of someone who is used to handouts, without considering the price payed by others.
Surfer Wrote the following on 11/01/2004 5:51 PM : When you lose someone to war, your face twisted in pain, I'll ask you my questions again.
Surfer Wrote the following on 11/01/2004 5:53 PM : And, btw, how do you justify the invasion of a country that did not have the WMD we were promised we would find and call it protection? That's called occupation.
Surfer Wrote the following on 11/01/2004 5:58 PM : And your quote about 3/4 of the soldiers voting for Bush...would that be the 3/4 of the 60% that actually showed up? HAHAHA wow, that means only 45% of the military is actually voting for Bush. Sounds like a minority to me. Oh yeah, Iraq wasn't involved with 9/11 at all, so your link is not very strong there. I'm complaining about Iraq, not Afganistan (which was a total failure anyway)
Patriot Wrote the following on 11/01/2004 6:30 PM : Not like it's any of your fucking business, but I've lost (2) family members, (1) friend and a neighbor to this war and the war in '91. So fuck off with your high and mighty attitude, which is only contrived from what other people did. The people I know lost their lives fighting for a purpose, not the meaningless undignified service you try to paint them into. You're statistics about the 40% who don't show up are not only mis-stated, but the process you follow in drawing your conclusion only reinforces my perception of how truly delusional you liberals can be. You have effectively talked yourself into believing that only a minority of the military is actually voting for Bush. The 40% you are referring to is actually more like 2% when you consider the ENTIRE military. The 40% figure I believe you are mis-quoting is from a report about service men and women who have completed their tour of service and have been honorably discharged, but can still be called back for active duty. The state department has reported that 38% of these have not returned phone calls and or returned post cards indicating their willingness to re-enlist. The state department believe that approximately 10% of this figure represents people who are willfully avoiding the re-enlistment process. Just goes to show, you fucking liberals are willing to cast aside any and all principles to talk yourselves into what you want to believe. WAKE THE FUCK UP, AND PULL YOUR HEAD OUT - YOU FUCKING STICK YOUR HEAD IN THE SAND, MICHEAL MOORE LOVIN', YELLOW-BELLIED, TERRORIST LOVIN', FLIP-FLOPPIN, PEACENIK TOUTING, JANE FONDA LOVIN' LIBERALS! W will be president for another (4) years. You better get used to kickin' terrorist ass. W doesn't check the polls before he makes up his mind. He just does what he's elected to do - the right thing - protect the country.
Surfer Wrote the following on 11/01/2004 6:44 PM : (wow cw, looks like I'm in the same boat as you...)
And I suppose you know exactly what I and my family have been through, don't you? And I suppose you know where my military family is, don't you? I suppose you know exactly what runs through my mind in regards to this war, don't you? You have lost people to the war (which I never ever asked you to reveal so take your attitude and put it away, it doesn't impress me) and so you think you have the right to say what the only correct opinion is? You know exactly what my thoughts on war and military are, don't you? The fact still remains that we were told we would find WMD and terrorists. Where are they? Where is this link to terrorism in Iraq? Whatever. You're just a meaningless voice in the ether when I turn off the computer.
Patriot Wrote the following on 11/01/2004 7:00 PM : I don't know what you and your family have been through - and do you know my story? Of course you don't - and you don't have to in order to argue about these issues on principle. However, you don't seem to have any - therefore, it makes an honest discourse about these issues futile. It's like pushing a car with a rope. Whenever you find yourself on the wrong side of an arguement, I'm sure you just pull out the principles that underpin that arguement, and you walk away and declare yourself the victor. Fuck off - you sell out.
Surfer Wrote the following on 11/01/2004 7:13 PM : *yawn* So, since you can't attack me on the principle of "family in military", you'll just paint a picture of me and convince yourself that it's true.... wow, hypocrisy in the finest.
Surfer Wrote the following on 11/01/2004 10:35 PM : Heh, no Neo, how did you know that my passionate pastime is researching religions and seeing how they affect one another so that I can find the hypocrisy and contradictions? Arabic? No way! I'd demand Latin *and* Aramaic!