Surfer Wrote the following on 03/25/2005 11:28 AM : I hope you choke on a pasty from one of your strippers.
Alice Wrote the following on 03/25/2005 11:52 AM : I have to ask .. what power does the pope have? I mean in one's everyday life. What kind of threat is "the pope is watching you"? Bah ... I hate everyone.
Golly Wrote the following on 03/25/2005 12:10 AM : No shit, what a mood today.
Alice Wrote the following on 03/25/2005 12:26 AM : Well Bob, since I don't believe in "the Creator", I ave nothing to worry about from anyone.
Alice Wrote the following on 03/25/2005 12:27 AM : Sorry about the mood Golly ... today is bill paying day ... never a happy day.
His Holliness the Pope Wrote the following on 03/25/2005 12:43 AM : I have to use the toilet now. It usually takes me an around hour these days. I'll be back afterwards.
Golly Wrote the following on 03/25/2005 1:08 PM : Alice-I imagine April 15 the same then?
Pope-Try a fiber supplement. Will help. Might have other issues though and want to quit wearing white.
Alice Wrote the following on 03/25/2005 1:19 PM : I've already done the taxes, no problems there.
Juniper Wrote the following on 03/25/2005 2:14 PM : 2 years ago a guy pulled a gun on me 2 blocks from home. Now I don't believe in guns, but I did hand over my wallet. Guess you did too. Gravity is not something you believe in, it's something you experience.
Alice Wrote the following on 03/25/2005 2:35 PM : Bob, I can promise you that this is a road you don't want to go down with me. Others have tried, and failed. Waste your proselytizing on someone with a lower IQ. I'm sure you can find a child somewhere that you can peddle your bullshit to .. throw in something about Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy while you are it.
Bob Wrote the following on 03/25/2005 2:39 PM : I'm glad to hear you're confident in your intellect. That's why I asked you a reasonable question. Do you consider yourself a reasonable person?
Alice Wrote the following on 03/25/2005 2:41 PM : Bob, I'm not going to answer your questions. I'm not interested in what you have to say.
Juniper Wrote the following on 03/25/2005 2:43 PM : Hi Bob, are you a friend of Patriot by any chance or maybe you belong to the same one and only realy true church? It's all been tried before...
Have you ever told a lie?
Alice Wrote the following on 03/25/2005 2:46 PM : Bob, let me make this simple. Conversations like this always end up in a stalemate. I don't see the point in going through this again with another religious person. Neither party gains any ground.
Juniper Wrote the following on 03/25/2005 2:47 PM : Can't take a HINT Mr Bob? Trying to play cheap psycho games on us? Grow up boy, you are out of your league here. Maybe Patriot will want to play with you when he shows up. He is into the same crap.
Alice Wrote the following on 03/25/2005 2:47 PM : Big time Juniper, Bob and Patriot are indeed cut from the same cloth.
Juniper Wrote the following on 03/25/2005 2:48 PM : Mabye I should spend some time finding some controversial religious links, that would really get his blood up!
Alice Wrote the following on 03/25/2005 2:49 PM : Must say, I like the patronizing touch "I realize you're afraid of what you might say". HA! It's too classic. If I had a dime for every time I heard shit like that, I'd surely be a millionaire.
Golly Wrote the following on 03/25/2005 2:51 PM : My, my. We all seem a little ornery today. It's Friday. Golly isn't in HR. Rejoice!!
Alice Wrote the following on 03/25/2005 2:52 PM : OOOOOOH! Yes Bob, I'm terrified. I'm so scared that all the evil I do will send me to hell for eternity, and I've simply been waiting for you to come along and set me right. AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!
Alice Wrote the following on 03/25/2005 2:53 PM : Bob, it has nothing to do with fear, it has to do with boredom. I'm very serious when I say I'm tired of having conversations with religious people. It's dull and tedious. Please spare me the agony.
Juniper Wrote the following on 03/25/2005 2:54 PM : Come on Golly lets play a bit with our Heavenly Mr. Bob. When he dies tonight (we wish) he will go to heaven. Imagine that! He must be one of the few... Such Hubris.
Bob Wrote the following on 03/25/2005 2:57 PM : I'm trying to spare you the ultimate agony. Perhaps because you are young, death seems a far ways off. But please consider the dangerous world we live in. The purpose of my questions is simply to make contact with your conscience. I have no intention of arguing with you. I promise you will not be bored.
Juniper Wrote the following on 03/25/2005 3:02 PM : Mr. Bob, maybe you should try out a religious forum where you can hang out with your kind of people? Keep in mind you are suffering from Hubris! One of the 7 deadly sins! Since you presume you are going to be saved and we aren't, unless we listen to you. Boy you sound like the guy who mugged me. He threatened me with a gun, you with eternal suffering. At least his gun was real and obvious.
From here on you can talk to yourself.
Alice Wrote the following on 03/25/2005 3:04 PM : I promise you I will be bored. Very bored.
Here I'll make a deal with you: You drop this bullshit, and I'll let you personally pray for my soul. Sounds like a neat deal to me!
In closing, I will make this as clear as I can. I do not believe in ANY gods. I do not believe in a afterlife. I do not believe in any creation myth. I do not believe in the concept of a soul.
I did not wake up one day and decide to think this way. I have studied for years to come to this conclusion. I respect your right to believe in your superstition, I will not try and change your mind. Please repect my right to believe in natural laws, science and logic.
I will not respond to anymore of your posts regarding this subject. I consider this matter closed.
If you want someone to play with, pitch your BS to NeoCon .. I'm sure he'd be more than happy to chat with you.
Golly Wrote the following on 03/25/2005 3:09 PM : Well Juniper, will you?
Bob Wrote the following on 03/25/2005 3:10 PM : I'm not trying to change your mind Alice. Up until now, I've only asked you a few very simple questions. None of them involving religion. But for some reason you're afraid of the reaonsable answers that are presenting themselves in your mind. Why is that?
Juniper Wrote the following on 03/25/2005 3:11 PM : Will I what Golly? Go to Heaven or Play with Mr. Bob?
Golly Wrote the following on 03/25/2005 3:12 PM : Both, I want to see where this is going.
Alice Wrote the following on 03/25/2005 3:17 PM : Alright Bob, I'll give you one more response. You're asking leading questions, and I know where they are leading. I have no fear of what I would say. Nor do I have any fear of what you'd say. The thing is, I already know everything that you're going to say. I've had this conversation before. Why do I need to go through it again?
As for this quote "I am just like you - a liar, adulterer, thief, blasphemer". I must say, you are rather presumptious about what kind of people we are, aren't you? I'm none of those things, nor is Juniper.
What do you think Juniper? Should I play with Bob? I will if you will.
Juniper Wrote the following on 03/25/2005 3:17 PM : Well Mr. Bob, what is it to you if I go to heaven or not? You racking up points in your The One And Only True Church (TM) playing the "how many have you saved today" game?
Bob Wrote the following on 03/25/2005 3:18 PM : Alice, you're telling me you've never told a lie in your life? Even when you were younger?
Bob Wrote the following on 03/25/2005 3:21 PM : Juniper - if you died tonight would you go to heaven? There isn't a grey area. It's a yes or no answer.
Alice Wrote the following on 03/25/2005 3:22 PM : Alright, I'll play. I suppose someone has to.
I have lied before. However, I do not see any reason to classify myself as a "liar". It's not something I do for fun or profit.
Alice Wrote the following on 03/25/2005 3:23 PM : AS for the heaven question, no, I'm not going to what you call "heaven". When I die, I will simply cease to be. It's not magical. It's just the end of a biological process.
Bob Wrote the following on 03/25/2005 3:23 PM : Alice, if you paint, you're a painter. If you lie, that makes you a.......
Golly Wrote the following on 03/25/2005 3:24 PM : Jeez Alice, you are full of good news today. I suppose the next thing I will hear from you is there in no Easter Bunny?
Alice Wrote the following on 03/25/2005 3:24 PM : What is you only paint as a hobby? What if you simply had to paint as part of a school project, then never picked up a brush again. Would you continue to be classified as a painter if you'd only done it once?
Juniper Wrote the following on 03/25/2005 3:25 PM : Mr. Bob, Is heaven that place where there will be nothing but young beautiful virile boys waiting for me? or is it that place where i get to sit on a bench and sing psalms for eternity?
Alice Wrote the following on 03/25/2005 3:26 PM : Well Golly, I wanted to break it to you gently .. but since you brought it up ....
Bob Wrote the following on 03/25/2005 3:26 PM : What is your hobby Alice?
Juniper Wrote the following on 03/25/2005 3:26 PM : Mhmmm I painted my room a couple of weeks ago, but on my CV it says I'm a nurse... now Mr. Bob says I'm a painter. Question. Do I need a new union card?
Golly Wrote the following on 03/25/2005 3:27 PM : "Alice, if you paint, you're a painter. If you lie, that makes you a......." I know, I know...if you are a female, and you lie, you ride your bike down a wood filled path and nude up for absolutley no reason at all. Did I guess right?
Golly Wrote the following on 03/25/2005 3:28 PM : If you two keep asking Bob the questions, we will make no progress.
Juniper Wrote the following on 03/25/2005 3:29 PM : Don't know Golly, that is a complicated and interesting problem you pose there! We will have to wait for Mr. Bob to enlighten us...
Juniper Wrote the following on 03/25/2005 3:30 PM : I know Golly, he keeps expecting us to answer him, but he does not answer us!
Alice Wrote the following on 03/25/2005 3:32 PM : Yes Golly, that was me on the bike :)
I have many hobbies: reading, writing, shopping, watching movies.
Golly Wrote the following on 03/25/2005 3:33 PM : Ah, your acting like my kids, "he started it." Answer the heaven question, will ya?
Juniper Wrote the following on 03/25/2005 3:33 PM : Ah, Mr. Bob, now we come to the guilt trip issue... I don't give you respect! But Mr. Bob you just start to ask questions just like those pesky marketing people who call you at odd hours to ask a couple of questions that will only take a few moments... why should I have respect?
To answer you question. I'm gay, so according to you I can't go to heaven. Happy now?
Golly Wrote the following on 03/25/2005 3:34 PM : If that was you on the bike, Um, you might just want to listen to what Bob has to say.
Patriot Wrote the following on 03/25/2005 3:34 PM : Bob - I respect your efforts. I think you're reaching out to the right folks, but if they keep up the elementary school charades, don't forget the words of the Master:
"Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you."
Juniper Wrote the following on 03/25/2005 3:36 PM : Good, Patriot and Bob can be superior saved humand together now.
Golly Wrote the following on 03/25/2005 3:38 PM : Gays can't go to heaven? Does heaven have the "exit only" rule too?
Alice Wrote the following on 03/25/2005 3:39 PM : Actually Golly, it wasn't me on the bike. I'm not that kind of gal.
Golly Wrote the following on 03/25/2005 3:41 PM : Oh, you don't exercise eh?
Alice Wrote the following on 03/25/2005 3:42 PM : Hurray, Patriot the great voice of reason is here. Thanks for reminding me how childish and stupid I am.
Golly Wrote the following on 03/25/2005 3:44 PM : Oh-oh, "looking upon a women with lust" is bad. Golly's screwed.
Alice Wrote the following on 03/25/2005 3:45 PM : Golly, I do exercise, but I don't ride bikes.
Golly Wrote the following on 03/25/2005 3:46 PM : You do know I am just messing. I really like the "hospitals don't take returns." Man, I crack myself up.
Alice Wrote the following on 03/25/2005 3:52 PM : Bob, if that's how you want to define it, fine, I'm a liar. I can admit that I've done it. I suppose I'm a liar too. Why not? I'm not ashamed of anything I've done.
Juniper Wrote the following on 03/25/2005 4:00 PM : So now I'm an adulterer because I'm gay... I'm competely lost now...
Adultry: Adultery is defined as carnal connection between a married person and one unmarried, or between a married person and the spouse of another. It is seen to differ from fornication in that it supposes the marriage of one or both of the agents. New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia
But I'm not married, nor have I ever engaged in sexual acts with married people!
Bob Wrote the following on 03/25/2005 4:14 PM : The Pope isn't the one who will judge you Juniper. The Catholic Encyclopedia will not do you any good on judgement day. Jesus's words mean that the Father sees even your thoughts and will judge you by them.
Juniper Wrote the following on 03/25/2005 4:16 PM : Speaking of the Devil Alice! LOL
So explain to me then o wise Mr. Bob, what is an adulterer then according to you? (hey I looked in a couple of places, they all came back with the same answer)!
Alice Wrote the following on 03/25/2005 4:22 PM : Bobby, I don't think Juniper has EVER looked at a woman with lust in his heart.
Alice Wrote the following on 03/25/2005 4:26 PM : Bob, questions of right and wrong don't bother me. I just don't care to be judged and preached to by someone I don't know. That may be a little difficult for your to understand, but deal with it.
As for the conscience thing, what makes you think I'm afraid of it. By the same token, what makes you think everyone has one? Ever read about serial killers? They have no internal voice guiding them about right and wrong. Then again, I don't either .. I just look at what's logical and I go with it.
Golly Wrote the following on 03/25/2005 4:27 PM : Alice, if Bob looked at the bicycle girl post, I think he knows you. I think he knows you rather well.
Juniper Wrote the following on 03/25/2005 4:28 PM : Since I never look upon women to lust after her I should be OK then.
Man you sure have a very extremely rigid way of looking at the bible. I also notice you carefull avoid any serious question or problem put into your way. Sorry guy, go look at some boobies so you have something to confess, I have things to do that are more urgent than letting you feel you excist. Thank you sincerely for trying to save my immortal soul. Feel free to pray for me, It won't do any good and it won't harm...
By the way, on the message board is a thread about evil and god. Some interesting theories there how evil and god are one.
Got to run. (nope not because I'm scared of you or upset or feel guilty, just that I have things to do, like shopping for my 79 year old neighbor (don't you start now Golly) and myself)
Alice Wrote the following on 03/25/2005 4:30 PM : Golly, are you experimenting witha new fantasy? I am not thegirl on the bike .. I'm not that pretty.
Golly Wrote the following on 03/25/2005 4:32 PM : It's Good Friday Juniper...take a run at her. Show her your fan.
Golly Wrote the following on 03/25/2005 4:34 PM : Pretty? I guess I never looked at the face.
Bob Wrote the following on 03/25/2005 4:34 PM : Juniper, the Law can only chase you to Calvary and no further. It's not about being a better man. Christ wants to turn you into a new man.
I'm not avoiding your questions, just trying to be as unargumentative as possible. If Christianity is really false and my interpretations of the Bible are wrong, perhaps you could show me how?
Alice Wrote the following on 03/25/2005 4:35 PM : Well, I guess you wouldn't. Besides, we have different haircuts, both of them :)
Golly Wrote the following on 03/25/2005 4:36 PM : You're going straight to hell young lady.
Alice Wrote the following on 03/25/2005 4:37 PM : Wow, this is nearly endless. No, I've never stolen anything, and I mean not a single thing. Not as a child, not as an adult. I've never killed anyone, had any sort of affair, um, cheated on my taxes etc. I think that should cover it.
Alice Wrote the following on 03/25/2005 4:39 PM : No Golly, I don't think I'm going to "Hell". But I suppose I am a little crude.
Bob Wrote the following on 03/25/2005 4:39 PM : Well you already told me you are a liar so why should I believe you? LOL
Alice Wrote the following on 03/25/2005 4:41 PM : If that's how you feel, why did you ask the question?
Golly Wrote the following on 03/25/2005 4:41 PM : Bob made a joke!!
Alice Wrote the following on 03/25/2005 4:43 PM : I know .. he must be beginning to see the foolishness of his line of questioning.
Alice Wrote the following on 03/25/2005 4:50 PM : Ok, so chrisitanity is the parachute, right? Yeah, I think I'll pass on that. I'd rather fall to the ground like a sack of meat. Thanks for the offer!
Bob Wrote the following on 03/25/2005 4:51 PM : You're right, but you are also being insincere about the flight. Do you believe you'll die one day?
Alice Wrote the following on 03/25/2005 4:51 PM : I gotta go folks ... but I must ask one question. I'll check back in a while for the answer.
Do you honestly think you can convert strangers to christianity over the internet?
Alice Wrote the following on 03/25/2005 4:52 PM : One last answer. Of course I'm going to die. Everything dies.
Laters. Everyone have a great weekend!
Sky Wrote the following on 03/25/2005 5:23 PM : Bob (AKA idiot extrordinaire) I will say this one thing to you, since I do not answer spiritual questions from morons like you. Here you are professing to be a Christian. You, sir, are a fraud and an abomination to your faith. Were you a good and real Christian, you would know that today, Good Friday, you are not supposed to be spreading the Gospel. Good Friday is a day of reflection, penance and prayer. It is a day when you should NOT be on the Internet at all, but spending your time in reverent contemplation of your savior's sacrifice and promise. Since you don't seem to undrstand something so fundamental about Christianity, why would anyone give you anymore attention than a swift kick in the ass? Go away you charlatan. You are not doing the Lord's work here. Shame on you! Don't even bother to respond, since you've proved that you are false and unworthy of further consideration.
Sky Wrote the following on 03/25/2005 5:43 PM : Sophostry, Bob, pure sophostry. The device of the scoundrel. Save it. I know far more about your religion than you could possibly know and I do not require instruction from you. Should I need spiritual instruction, I will seek it from someone I know and trust, but hever from some fraud on the Internet who has some perverse need to show they world what a good Christian he is.
Sky Wrote the following on 03/25/2005 5:58 PM : Bob, how presumtuous and, therefor, unchristian of you to judge the state of conscience of someone you don't even know. I've caught you up as a fraud again. To do what you just did, to wit make judgements about someone's conscience, is to put yourself in God's place. This is a deadly sin.
I don't need you to make "contact with my consceince", nor do you have any invitation to do so. My conscience is quite clear and my spirit far beyond anything that your narrow understanding can possibly know.
Ah, well, there'll be no intelligent discourse on CodeWolf while Bob (Patriot) is here trying to convert us all to his brand of Christianity. So I'm out. Actually, I have some friends dropping in this evening. We will be discussing philosphy and religion in a completely different way; one far more instructive and enlightening than Bob's, since we won't restrict ourselves to the evangelical Christian view.
Bob (aka Guest) Wrote the following on 03/25/2005 6:02 PM : Very well then. Enjoy your evening.
Surfer Wrote the following on 03/31/2005 4:03 PM : Actually, BOB, what the passage there refers to is how god would rather someone be against him or for him, not say one thing and live another (like someone around here who changes names alot).
Greg K. Wrote the following on 04/21/2005 5:36 PM : Wow! Some very interesting commentary here!
Before I offer my thoughts about the topic of this post, might I make a suggestion Mr. Bob? Two words - Socratic Method.
The whole question of lost books of the Bible hinges on what the Bible is. Now the Bible can only be two things. What is it that we mean when we use the word "Bible"? Well, a Bible is either God's supernatural Word -- God supernaturally oversees its production and its care. Or it 's a statement of beliefs of the leaders of Christianity. They say "this represents what we believe." Disregarding any supernatural element, it's based on consensus. Let's just say we're the only Christians in the world. We say we believe in these things, but we don't believe these other things so throw them out because they don't reflect what we believe. Any group has the right to determine what it is they believe.
Now, notice that there are two ways of looking at this: a supernatural or natural perspective. I would contend that there are no other ways of looking at this question; no other options. No matter who you are out there you either think of the Bible as being God's inspired Word (most of the conservative Christian world holds this view, in some form), or the Bible is merely the statement of beliefs of the early church, without any supernatural content. Pretty much the rest of the world looks at it this way.
Now, the question of the lost books of the Bible comes up. But my problem is: how is it possible that there can be any lost books of the Bible?
Is it possible that in the first sense of the word Bible that the books could be lost? Wait a minute, if God is supernaturally overseeing it, then God is supernaturally involved in seeing that His book gets written down and preserved. So we have God's supernatural protection if it has a supernatural quality to it. You may say that the supernatural element is bogus, but you can see that from this sense of the definition that it's not really possible to think that God could lose His own book. "But man wrote it...." Can you make your dog sit? Of course. If you a mere man can make your dog sit, can't an infinite God oversee the care of His Word? It doesn't matter if man or monkeys were responsible for taking care of it.
Maybe the Bible isn't supernatural, it's a statement of beliefs of the leaders of the church. Okay, if that's the case then who has the final word on which books belong in the Bible? The leaders of the early church. Therefore, by very definition any books that they cast into outer darkness are not part of the Bible. It's their decision to decide which books represent their beliefs. And if they say the Gospel of Thomas isn't our book and somebody else picks it up two thousand years later and say it's a lost book of the Bible, then it's fair to ask "In what sense is it a lost book of the Bible?" It might be a lost book of antiquity, a great archaeological find, a wonderful piece of literature, but a lost book of the Bible? No.
The Bible has to be either a supernatural book, or a non-supernatural book. If it's supernatural -- if God is responsible for its writing, it's transmission and its survival -- then God, being God, does the job right. God doesn't make mistakes, he doesn't forget things, he doesn't get confused about what is true and what is false, and He isn't absent-minded -- He doesn't lose his lessons.
If the Bible is not supernatural -- as many will contend, especially those who claim to have found lost books -- we have a different problem. By what standard do we claim these are bonafide lost books of the Bible? If, from a human perspective, the Bible is that collection of writings that reflect the beliefs of the leaders of early Christianity, then those writings they discard are not parts of the Bible by very definition. It's like writing a book of your personal beliefs from a stack of ideas you've collected over the years and then have someone rummage through your trash to find other beliefs you didn't include and then claim that these were your secret or lost beliefs. You say, "No, they're not my beliefs; that's why they're in the trash. If they were were really mine, they'd be in the book.
The irony is that many of the the "lost books" advocates make the point that these books they've rediscovered, books like the so-called Gospel of Thomas, were missing because the church fathers "suppressed" them, which is another way of saying the early Christians threw them out, trashed them. And the accusation is true. They did. Critics think this strengthens their case. It doesn't; it destroys it, because it proves that these books were simply not accepted by the leaders as representative of their beliefs. So therefore it can't be their Bible.
The Jesus Seminar people are taking a little different tack. They reject the idea that the Bible has supernatural origins. They suggest that since it's just man's opinion anyway, we should have a recall vote on the Bible and fix the defects. We should reconvene and reshuffle the deck, tossing some books out and including others to reflect what the church now believes about spiritual truth, which means "what the Jesus Seminar now believes about spiritual truth." They are not using the "lost books of the Bible" tack.
So regardless of your view of the Bible -- supernatural or natural -- there is no sense in which it makes any sense to talk of lost books of the Bible. Ergo it's impossible, rationally -- nothing to do with spiritual commitments at all -- that there can be anything like lost books of the Bible. The phrase just doesn't make any sense.
MrMan Wrote the following on 04/21/2005 7:18 PM : Greg K. sure is surprised how interesting his own clipped commentary is:
The whole question of lost books of the Bible hinges on what the Bible is. Now the Bible can only be two things. What is it that we mean when we use the word "Bible"? Well, a Bible is
Surfer Wrote the following on 04/21/2005 7:52 PM : Greg just wants to turn things around so he doesn't have to worry about looking at non-church ordained material. He should read...what is it..that fraudulent book the church hired people to write about witches... the witches hammer or some shit... prime example of what the church ordains as factual. He's just afraid he might be wrong. Here's a hint: you are wrong.