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Sheehan Arrested During Anti-War Protest - Cindy Sheehan, the California woman who has used her son's death inIraq to spur the anti-war movement, was arrested Monday while protesting outside the White House.
From Nony

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Surfer Wrote the following on 09/26/2005 8:28 PM :
She's not in Iraw. She's here. Your logic is lacking there.

Of course, anyone reading the article can see that she was arrested rightfully.


codewolf Wrote the following on 09/26/2005 10:22 PM :
"I would like to say to Cindy Sheehan and her supporters: Don't be a group of unthinking lemmings," said Mitzy Kenny of Ridgeley, W.Va., whose husband died in Iraq last year. She said the anti-war demonstrations "can affect the war in a really negative way. It gives the enemy hope."

moron.


Nony not logged in Wrote the following on 09/27/2005 02:27 AM :
Hey Patriot ... what about if you were born in Iraq? And as religiious a Muslim as you pretend to be a Christian ... Wanna bet you would be an "insurgent"?

By the way her son did not die "WILLINGLY" nobody does, so don't be stupid. And since when is death a sacrifice? Man, war is NOT a religious service. Get real. If you are that convinced the war is just and right, stop schooting out you mouth and sign up. My guess you can be very helpfull in the rebuilding of Iraq considering your job...


Surfer Wrote the following on 09/27/2005 05:59 AM :
Nony, I'm gonna have to say that I don't see where Patriot linked war and religion in this post.


DHH Wrote the following on 09/27/2005 2:38 PM :

...Still looking for the weapons of mass destruction......


Nony Wrote the following on 09/27/2005 4:19 PM :
I know I know Surfer ... is just the way he uses the word "sacrifice" for me that automatically makes the link with religion ... can't help it ...

BTW Patriot ... there are so many dictators around, but then they don't have oil ...

Also if she had been born in Iraq, her son would still have been alive. If not, her son would have been killed by the US invasion army, and she would have protested and been arrested for that by the American soldiers.


Patriot Wrote the following on 09/27/2005 5:11 PM :
You, me, Surfer and maybe even Codewolf are going to die someday Nony. The statistics for death are stagering. One out of every person born in the world dies. Therefore, meaning in life is derived not from death, but from what you do, who you are and how you live your life. Even from your secular, humanistic worldview meaning is derived from values and purpose. Although I would argue as Bertrand Russel did (a famous atheist) that without God life has no meaning, but for the time being I'll concede this point - that even atheists find meaning in life, because I think some do for a season. They invent a purpose for themselves and then pursue it.

This lady's kid died for a purpose. He didn't die smoking crack or get AIDS from cornholing some dude at a bathouse, and all indications are that he didn't whine about having to get called up to go defend his country in a time of war.

Can I ask you a question? Do you consider your job heroic? I know Golly appreciates the fruits of your internet surfing labor, but that's another story..... do you consider your career heroic? I don't consider my job as intriniscally heroic. I don't think there is anything in the course of engineering a construction project heroic. I think people who choose to make a living as a fireman, policeman or a soldier are heroic. But I think the heroism stops there. I don't think it's heroic to get up in the morning and do one's job. The heroic decision is to enter one of those fields, where the job description involves the risking of one's life on a daily basis. But getting up in the morning and doing your job, regardless of what it is isn't heroic. It's called duty. It's a word that doesn't get much use or respect anymore.

And I'll tell you why I believe that. Listen to the fireman and policemen who survived 9/11, or the WWII vets - they repeatedly say "I was just doing my job". And they were. And then look at the other side of the spectrum - these idiot Keystone cops in New Orleans, who abandoned their posts, because "they didn't have anywhere to go the bathroom" and their shoes were wet - what the hell is wrong with these people? What would've happened if the firemen came to the WTC and said - "I ain't going in that building."

Cindy Sheehan's son died doing his duty. Regardless of how he died or the individual circumstances involving his untimely departure from this earth, he died, as all others have who bravely served our country - a hero. Her actions, in my opinion, have only served to detract from that honorable sacrifice.


Surfer Wrote the following on 09/27/2005 7:04 PM :
One out of every person born in the world dies.

So much for Biblical stories.

even atheists find meaning in life,

You're right. Every one has a purpose, even you

I think people who choose to make a living as a fireman, policeman or a soldier are heroic.

Really? Go talk to my brother. Don't ask. Go. You'll see how much heroism it takes to threaten (with gun and other violence) a disabled woman because she showed concern.

But getting up in the morning and doing your job, regardless of what it is isn't heroic.

Huh. Work is a choice. Doing what it takes to reach a goal is heroic. Period.

It's called duty.

No, it's called a choice.

It's a word that doesn't get much use or respect anymore.

You know why? Because people overused it in conjunction with other words like "war", and "military", and "serve". Those words, ultimately, are linked with death. Personally, I think "duty" got the short end of the stick, but then not every lives up to their potential

Cindy Sheehan's son died doing his duty.

And exactly what duty was that? can you tell me where the WMDs went?

Her actions, in my opinion, have only served to detract from that honorable sacrifice.

Hell, the only reason anyone knows his name (including you) is because of her actions in the past. Now that that chapter is closed (IE: she made her point and had closure), her actions are her own. Besides, it's not like he cares anyway


Surfer Wrote the following on 09/27/2005 7:07 PM :
hmmm, glitch in the matrix Neo. it's supposed to be:

And exactly what duty was that? can you tell me where the WMD's went.


Surfer Wrote the following on 09/27/2005 7:09 PM :
Well hells bells...

Remind me again what that duty was...

and

Can you tell me where the WMDs went?


Nony Wrote the following on 09/28/2005 04:53 AM :
Quit posturing and asking rethorical questions Patriot! And stop hinting that I should be "evil" for posting links to boobie sites ... so what? Nothing stops you from posting hollier than thou bible stories to counteract.

Oh, and FYI, you can get aids from regular hetero sex too you know! No need to "cornhole some dude in a bathhouse."

Her "kid" did not die to defend his country! His country was not attacked by Iraq, nor did Iraq ever post a danger or a threat to his country! (Even the republicans are now admitting this) ... on top of that he was a chaplain's aide or something, unarmed duty! And if he died for a purpose ... maybe it was to get his mum to act as a catalyst for the Pease Movement? (Gods ways and all that ...)

What's the point of talking to you anyway, you're one of the 35 something % that still approve the killing of everything outside the USA that does not completly agree and serves you in with you wasteful consumption.

And PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE stop your overusing the word "Hero"! It is starting to make me sick! Thank you.


Patriot Wrote the following on 09/28/2005 12:22 AM :
One question for you Nony: why do photos of Iraq civilian war victims bother you so much, but when I posted the names - *just the names* of the victims of 9/11 you came unglued?

What about when pro-lifers drive around in semi trucks with pictures of murdered, defenseless human beings?

You claim to be for life, but your point of view is made irrelevant by your lack of consistency. Not all killing is wrong Nony. For example, with regards to your wife. Do you have a moral obligation to protect her from harm? Or would you simply run away in the prescence of an attacker? My country was attacked. I'm not in complete agreement with every aspect of the response. But none the less, the response by the current administration has proved far more effective then Mr. Clinton's, or your philosophy of pulling down our pants and letting the terrorists kill more of my innocent countrymen.


Surfer Wrote the following on 09/28/2005 2:07 PM :
What about when pro-lifers drive around in semi trucks with pictures of murdered, defenseless human beings?

Ever heard of PETA?

============

Not all killing is wrong Nony.

"Thou shalt not kill."

There you go, picking and choosing Biblical faith (again). Either that or you don't believe in God and what God says in your infallible perfect Bible.


Surfer Wrote the following on 09/28/2005 2:08 PM :
Excuse me, PETA shows pictures of animals and will even bring along show and tell, but they do it to kids. So, there's your murdered. And there's your defenseless human beings.


Patriot Wrote the following on 09/28/2005 4:04 PM :
I thought you said you've studied the Hebrew and Greek translations surf? The Hebrew meaning of the word translated as "kill" actually means "murder" or "to slay someone in a violent manner unjustly." So, in the Ten Commandments God is saying, "Thou shalt not murder."

The symantical game you're playing is really the surface issue. What lies beneath the tension you're attempting to ignore is a moral dilemma. A moral dilemma is when you must choose one of two things, but either thing would be wrong to do when taking on its own. Do you endanger a human life, or do you tell a lie? If you choose to tell the truth, you do wrong by exposing a human being to serious harm. If you protect the human being by lying, well, you've saved a life, but told a lie.

There are a couple of different ways to approach these types of issues. One is to do what you're doing and claim there really is no such thing as a moral dilemma. As you and Nony are contending - you should never kill, you should always live and let live, and let God or your kids, or your other countrymen worry about the consequences of not pursuing terrorists, of allowing the wanton killing of innocent human beings.

Another argument overused here and elsewhere on the net is to bludgeon the President's charachter for not telling the whole truth with regards to his plans for Iraq. Before one can do that though, you must first answer the question: Is it wrong for the President to lie to the American people to protect the country?

The Bible teaches that not all sins are the same. Some are more serious than others. This is very clear in the Scriptures. Jesus said to Pilate, "He who delivered Me up to you has the greater sin" (John 19:11). According to Jesus Surf, some sins are greater than others.

Your common sense alone should tell you that stealing a pencil is not as serious a crime as taking someone's life. Make no mistake, it's still a sin, and even a small sin is enough to make us guilty before God. But all sin is not the same to God. He certainly does make distinctions. And because God makes distinctions, it's possible for us to solve moral dilemmas. When stuck between two options, we choose the greater good.

Well what's the greater good? Who determines this? Should it not be those who've developed their moral judgement? Would you trust a Hollywood star, an ethics professor, or Mother Teresa to make a moral decision with the greatest precision? Personally, I would ask someone like Mother Teresa who gave her life to doing good and developing virtuous behavior. Through practice, she developed her sense of Moral judgment.

I think killing is right sometimes Surf. I think lying is right sometimes. I think there are many things that, in isolation, would be wrong, but when a higher moral good is served, they not only become not wrong, they become obligatory. And I think that's hard for people like yourself and Nony, who hold this all or nothing morality to accept.


Surfer Wrote the following on 09/28/2005 5:22 PM :
I thought you said you've studied the Hebrew and Greek translations surf? The Hebrew meaning of the word translated as "kill" actually means "murder" or "to slay someone in a violent manner unjustly." So, in the Ten Commandments God is saying, "Thou shalt not murder."

Yeah, no fucking shit. That's common knowledge now and you don't have to study the hebrew source to know that. Hell, even I knew that before any of my studies. So: 1. It's common knowledge now, not some incredible epiphany. 2. I was in the middle of a class so my typing time gets limited when I'm about to take a test (networking class, in case you want to wonder what I was doing at a computer during class)

=============

Another argument overused here and elsewhere on the net is to bludgeon the President's charachter for not telling the whole truth with regards to his plans for Iraq.

He didn't tell anything BUT lies. Where's the 9/11 Sadam link? Where's the WMD? Where's the bioweapons? Oil? Lower prices? Mission accomplished? ANY OF IT???

=============

What lies beneath the tension you're attempting to ignore is a moral dilemma.

I don't have any moral dilemmas, as you so eloquently and articulately put it.

=============

And because God makes distinctions, it's possible for us to solve moral dilemmas.

So, God makes decisions and ...wait here, let me see if I understand this: God has a thought and we solve things? Hot DAMN!!!! God, think of me with lots of money!

=============

The Bible teaches that not all sins are the same. Some are more serious than others. This is very clear in the Scriptures. Jesus said to Pilate, "He who delivered Me up to you has the greater sin" (John 19:11). According to Jesus Surf, some sins are greater than others.

Irrelevent. The topic was killing. Not betraying.

=============

I think killing is right sometimes Surf. I think lying is right sometimes.

Then get your goddamned piece of white trash ass over there and kill! Don't leave for a poor boy to die and then let his mom get arrested! If you'd been there, you could have stopped this. It's your fault that someone else is dead.

And as far as killing and lying being right: Not even when my father punched my mother in the neck (almost breaking it) to get to me so he could beat me, not even when I was thrown through walls for walking away from him when told to do so, not when I was beat bloody for no reason, not even when I almost died because he beat me repeatedly (all of these things by my own father now mind you)... not once did I agree with violence. I never fought back. Didn't even want to. Not as a kid. Not now. But your statements today, more than any other, show just what kind of fair weather Christian idiot you are... only if things suit you. You'd lie and kill if you thought it right and your God be damned for telling you otherwise. At least I have morals I've stuck to my entire life, despite the danger it put me through. And even by your twisted interpretation of Christianity and Biblical verses that far outshines any shit you spit out. So take that holier than thou attitude and shove up your ass. And your wife's and kid's ass for all I care. There are things you don't know about that you even refuse to consider, and as such, you are nothing more than another idiot moving his lips with nothing intelligent to say.


Patriot Wrote the following on 09/28/2005 6:20 PM :
Surf - I'm sorry to hear about the abuse you went through as a kid. I can only imagine what it must've been like. I don't know the hearthache you've been put through. No one should have to go through that crap. No one.

I understand that as a freewilled human being, the only reaction to your father's violence, was to completely contrast his behavior by not giving into your natural inclination and right to defend yourself with force. It was a control mechanism to remain sane in an otherwise insane situation. I'm not going to second guess you or play arm chair quarterback. I don't know what I would've done if I were put in your shoes. I would like to think that I would've hit back, but reflecting on my own upbringing I rarely challenged my dad in argument, until my late teens and early twenties, so I doubt I would've fought back physically as a younger kid. What good would it have done anyways? If you were smaller, and less developed then your father, fighting back would probably have only made the physical outcome worse.

Have you ever considered the damage your earthly father did to tarnish your perception of your Heavenly Father? Just asking because it's an issue I've had to deal with. My dad was not an overtly spiritual person. He was a very private person, with respect to spirituality and God. So he didn't attend church with my brothers and I much. He was a good dad. He taught me how to look people in the eye and tell the truth, throw a baseball, and multiply and divide, add and subtract, but we never discussed what was behind all of these things. Like why we tell the truth, why there is a right or wrong. These things I had to learn by rough experience. As an adult I realized that many of my perceptions about my dad, were projected onto God, because my dad was the earthly example.

I've come to learn that our heavenly Father Surf, is nothing like our earthly fathers. Even the best dad's fall short in some way of the Perfect Love of God. You've got every right to be angry for what your dad did to you and your mom. Just reading your story made me mad. Anger is better then depression in my book. Anger tells us something is wrong. Don't make the mistake I did and project this anger that your father deserves onto God. Your father acted contrary to the teachings of God, not in accordance with them. Dads are supposed to protect their kids. Whatever lesson he was trying to convey to you was lost in his method of undisciplined discipline was it not? God's not like that Surf. He doesn't want to punish you for your sins, if you'll let Him forgive you. But He can't forgive you until you ask. Jesus said, "I stand at the door of your heart and knock". The key to that door is only unlocked from the inside Surf.


Surfer Wrote the following on 09/28/2005 6:37 PM :
Surf - I'm sorry to hear about the abuse you went through as a kid.

Kind words, but I don't need apologies. I've dealt with it.

============

Have you ever considered the damage your earthly father did to tarnish your perception of your Heavenly Father?

Already dealt with that too: nope. See, you don't acknowledge my beliefs as valid (in the past and you still aren't) and my core religious experiences happened before and after the trauma (and by after, I mean after I've dealth with and healed it), but not during this abusive period (this does not mean I was seperated from any religious experience... notice my qualifier of "core"). . So, you assume I don't believe in any deity you recognize whether they be false or true. So the question is an echo of things already said.


Patriot Wrote the following on 09/28/2005 7:05 PM :
Surf - You're a deist right?. You believe that everyone is God and that everything is God. That God is not involved in the day to day interactions of the Universe, and that God could very well be the Universe himself. The issue is not that you don't believe what I believe, the issue both of us face is are our religious belief's true? Do they correspond to reality.

Clearly we both can't be right. God can't be both an impersonal cosmic battery cell that wound up the universe and let it go now doesn't give a rip about it and be the One, True Living God of the Bible can He?

If I recall correctly you were raised Baptist right? And then you told me, you had this "core" religious experience and you threw off and deprogrammed your mind of the message that was parroted at your church right? Did they condone your father's behavior? What was the position of your pastor on the abuse? If they did nothing, they were acting contrary to scripture, not in accordance with it Surf. And if that was the case - good for you. I'm glad to hear you left that sorry bunch.

So, in your worldview, if everyone is God and God is everything, how do you explain evil? Is God evil? Or is God good? Is he both? If he's evil or a combination of both, why, or more to the point, *how* can you worship him? Is he worthy of worship, if he's capable of evil?


Surfer Wrote the following on 09/28/2005 7:29 PM :
Surf - You're a deist right?.

No.

========

Did they condone your father's behavior?

Some of it. They never knew about the beatings or physical abuse. They disliked him for other reasons: he didn't go to church.

========

So, in your worldview, if everyone is God and God is everything, how do you explain evil? Is God evil? Or is God good? Is he both? If he's evil or a combination of both, why, or more to the point, *how* can you worship him? Is he worthy of worship, if he's capable of evil?

First, see my answer to the first quoted question.

Second, I already answered those questions. As I recall, you didn't like the answers.


Surfer Wrote the following on 09/28/2005 8:34 PM :
you don't like hindus and you absolutely hate Catholics.

When the hell did I say that?

====================

"The only evil that exists is in corporate policy, suggestive selling and the minds of imaginative little boys."

*gets bullhorn* ALLOW ME TO INTRODUCE SARCASM.

====================

How do you worship a god who is evil

Who said anything about worship? Worship and religion seperate you from that which you worship by introducing a layer of laws and self-insult (read: self-depreciation, notice that in this instance, this has nothing to do with pride, but rather a love for oneself).


codewolf Wrote the following on 09/28/2005 9:04 PM :
How do you worship a god who is evil and yet claim moral superiority over others?

No one can judge another's morality. This is the fundamental flaw in all religion.

Although we have laws that are based on a common morality, your own moral basis is and always will be different from anyone you meet. Attempting to create a communal morality is a lost cause, people are individuals. People think differently, act differently, react differently to situations. No totality in common grounded morality would stand the test of just a few people. All religion is an attempt to base an individual's moral beliefs on a common moral rule. All religions fail in this. Until you realize that religion itself is flawed, you will be attempting to sculpt someone else unto yourself. If we were all clones, religion, a common belief in a moral straight path, would work. But we are not clones, we are individuals.

Hitler and Manson had their own moral beliefs that the larger community rejected. Does that make their belief not real?


Surfer Wrote the following on 09/28/2005 9:53 PM :
How do you worship a god who is evil and yet claim moral superiority over others?

How can someone worship a god who let's good things happen to bad people?

==============

Although we have laws that are based on a common morality, your own moral basis is and always will be different from anyone you meet.

Different realities. The whole of my existance is different from yours because I have seen different things, had different thoughts, accepted as true and just different rules. Each person creates their own reality. Here's another way of looking at it. You didn't create all those people in those bad relationships, but you created every single opportunity for those events to happen (unless you believe God forced it to happen in which case you don't believe in free will, which means you're destined to heaven or hell no matter what you want to believe).

Different facets. My experience is different from yours. Your life is not mine. Like the statue I hav never seen the front of, I cannot know your existence. I can only guess. Your experiences are something no one else in the world knows.

============

All religion is an attempt to base an individual's moral beliefs on a common moral rule. All religions fail in this. Until you realize that religion itself is flawed, you will be attempting to sculpt someone else unto yourself.

All religions have rules. Without exception. Rules are for control. Why do people need to be controlled and who controls them? How is that control exerted? There's absolutely nothing stopping people from ignoring basic morality rules except fear. When you let go of that fear, you are completely liberated. If nothing else, you are liberated to choose to commit an action because you want to do a moraly upstanding thing. You can choose to do it and therefore feel better about the choice (as opposed to feeling compelled to do something).


codewolf Wrote the following on 09/28/2005 10:59 PM :
damn, surfer, you seem to agree with me, we need a religion...

I'd like to mention at this point in the discussion that I am an ordained minister.

Seriously, yes, I am, able to perform weddings and baptisms, with the Church of Universal Life. LINK

Seems like everybody is ruled by fear, that's not my god, my god is mine, not yours and is in me. You god fearing people have a lot to fear. Do not worship my god. stay away, he's mine, and he's in my pants.


Joe Sixpack Wrote the following on 09/29/2005 10:37 AM :
You guys ave given me a headache


Ben Cartwright Wrote the following on 09/29/2005 10:49 AM :
I recogn you be getting a headache from that cheap beer ya drink Joe.


Joe Sixpack Wrote the following on 09/29/2005 11:05 AM :
That'll be a first!


Patriot Wrote the following on 09/29/2005 11:29 AM :
''codewolf Wrote the following on 09/28/2005 9:04 PM :

No one can judge another's morality. This is the fundamental flaw in all religion.''

I couldn't agree with you more codewolf. I also see it this way - no one can judge another's soul. As C.S. Lewis wrote: .....''what can you ever really know of other people's souls - of their temptations, their oppurtunities, their struggles? One soul in the whole creation you do know codewolf, and it is the only one whose fate is placed in your hands. If there is a God, you are, in a sense, alone with Him. You cannot put Him off with speculation about your next door neighbors or memories of what you have read in magazines or seen on TV. What will all that chatter and hearsay count (will you even be able to remember it?) when the fog which we call 'nature' or the 'real world' fades away and the Prescence in which you have always stood becomes palpable, immediate and unavoidable?''

Codewolf, Surfer, I undestand where you guys are coming from. I've been their myself. It's hard to understand the message of Christ. The fundamental flaw, the confusion that permeates much of the church today, which only serves to drive unbelievers even further away is the same problem that existed back in the days when Christ lived. It's the confusion of religion, with a true relationship with the Creator of the universe. Religion, tradition, baptism, all these things - the teachings of the preacher, they are the finger pointing at the moon, but they are not the moon itself. The heart changing relationship with Christ, the personal devotion to "follow Him" is the essence of Christianity. Christianity, at it's most basic element is not a religion - it's a response. A response to what Christ did for all of us some 2000 years ago. It's a choice.

When Christ came through Galillee, Matthew (a tax collector at the time) was sitting at his money changing table. Christ didn't tell him, "stop being a tax collector and say seven hail marys and twenty our fathers, then stand on your head and tomorrow I'll give you some more instructions". Christ simply said "Follow me". He didn't say, let's play the "Jesus says game". Jesus says, go to church. Jesus says, feed the poor. Jesus says, love your neighbor. He said "follow me". Many Christians (I've fallen into this camp more times then I care to admit myself too), reduce their walk with the Lord to a "to do list". But upon further reflection on the Scriptures, this is not the essence of Christiantiy.

Religion, ritual, doing good, even being VERY good, will never change your heart. Only Christ can change your heart. It seems with your hatred of religion and religious things, you two are in good company. Jesus likened the religious Pharisees, the uber-religious of His day, to a group of dishwashers who clean the outside of a cup while leaving the inside dirty. He said, "Now you Pharisees make the outside of the cup and dish clean, but your inward part is full of greed and wickedness. Foolish ones! Did not He who made the outside make the inside also?" (Luke 11:39-40). Jesus knew that a person can change his image without changing his act (Matthew 23:1-3). He knew that religious credentials and ceremony cannot change the heart. He told one of the most religious men of His day that unless a person is "born again" by the Spirit, he cannot see the kingdom of God (John 3:3). Yet from that day until now, many of the most religious people in the world continue to forget that while religion can give attention to outward appearance, only Christ can change the heart."

[i]Surfer Wrote the following on 09/28/2005 9:53 PM :

All religions have rules. Without exception. Rules are for control. Why do people need to be controlled and who controls them? How is that control exerted? There's absolutely nothing stopping people from ignoring basic morality rules except fear. When you let go of that fear, you are completely liberated. If nothing else, you are liberated to choose to commit an action because you want to do a moraly upstanding thing. You can choose to do it and therefore feel better about the choice (as opposed to feeling compelled to do something).[/i]

You hit the nail right on the head surf. Because religion cannot change a heart, it tries to control people with laws and expectations that are not even kept by the religionists who interpret and apply the rules. Jesus confronted this fundamental flaw of human beings as well. He said, "Woe to you also, lawyers [experts in religious law]! For you load men with burdens hard to bear, and you yourselves do not touch the burdens with one of your fingers" (Luke 11:46). Religion is good at describing high standards of right behavior and relationships, but poor at giving real and merciful help to those who realize they have not lived up to those expectations."

Only Christ can change a mans heart. But He can't come in unless you let him. That would be violating your free will. He's not going to take away your free will to come into your life and change your heart. God did not make toy soliders, who are merely automatons. He created man as the magnus opus of creation. Free willed creatures, who through the recognition of Creation, the Moral Law and the historical record of Jesus's Christ's life, could piece together these clues, to understand His purposes, for this life and the next.


Surfer Wrote the following on 09/29/2005 1:36 PM :
Codewolf, Surfer, I undestand where you guys are coming from. I've been their myself. It's hard to understand the message of Christ. The fundamental flaw, the confusion that permeates much of the church today, which only serves to drive unbelievers even further away is the same problem that existed back in the days when Christ lived.

*blink blink blink* A critical nonemotional analysis of religion and its rules, tenets, principles has nothing to do with how the message is conveyed. Its all there, in print. You don't need a single person to preach to you, to teach you. Just yourself, your mind and a willingness to see what's there and research deeper if something doesn't make sense. Yeah, here's where I'm gonna stop because it's starting to enter into the realm of my research paper. Hey, you guys want that in Word or PDF? I'm thinking PDF... you know, preserve the info and format that way.

=============

You hit the nail right on the head surf. Because religion cannot change a heart,

So it matters not what religion a person is or what they believe. So... it's not important to ask. The only reason to ask at this point is to be judgemental.... to compare one person to another, perhaps to yourself. And what a selfish thing to do. The only people who compare others to themselves ar the ones have have stability or security issues (or are just pissed off like a hornet with a hemmoroid).


Surfer Wrote the following on 09/29/2005 1:40 PM :
damn, surfer, you seem to agree with me, we need a religion...

Erm, no. Religions are bad. Wait, we could in fact make an official religion. Set worship days and ...hmm, church stuff is tax free too. You know, I see some profit potential in this.... I MEAN: PRAISE THE HEAVENS! yeah and WE SHOULD DO THIS FOR THE CHILDREN. THINK OF THE CHILDREN (and boobies).

The First Church of Codewolf, Service at 8, boobies at 8:30, other services a 9.

Golly might even like it!

============

I'd like to mention at this point in the discussion that I am an ordained minister. Seriously, yes, I am, able to perform weddings and baptisms, with the Church of Universal Life. LINK

Hehe. That's awesome. I can see some intellectual/philosophical implications with this. Oh that's too great.


Juniper Wrote the following on 09/29/2005 2:49 PM :
Yeah, blame it on the whiskey Ben, the way I remember it you were practically begging for it. And you weren't drunk either. You tried to get me drunk and got very upset when it interfered with my sexual capabilities!


Juniper Wrote the following on 09/29/2005 2:51 PM :
MHmm service at 8, Boobies at 8:30, other services at 9 ... very interested in those "OTHER" services! I might like them!


Juniper Wrote the following on 09/29/2005 4:14 PM :
What have I ever done to you guys that you have to be so nasty!


Golly Wrote the following on 09/29/2005 4:27 PM :
Ben, Joe, after you get to know Juniper, he isn't a bad dude. His taste in boobies is sometimes strange but he has a hell of an eye for decor. (wink, wink)


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